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Are dragons and magic necessary parts of what makes this genre fantasy and not SF? What about fantasy written with no magic or "fantastic" flora/fauna? I'm wondering if that would that disappoint many readers.
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Fri, October 10, 2003 - 8:56 AMSince I can't think of a Fantasy book that's not magically influenced off the top of my head, I'll go with a fantasy-type movie. Wouldn't you consider the movie Juliette of the Spirits somewhat of a Fantasy movie? And there's not really any magic, and definitely no dragons or wizards.
I suppose die-hard lovers of dragons, wizards, elves and suchlike might be disappointed, but then if they love that stuff so much, they probably won't go for the books that don't have those items in them.
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Fri, October 10, 2003 - 6:20 PMAs a general definition, fantasy (in my mind) is anything that doesn't take place in the 'real' world. Anything that has a fantastic setting. And yes, this includes comic books, sci-fi novels, and even the 'magical realism' style of Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Of course, this becomes a bit too general so you almost have to break it down even more. Pulp Adventure, Sci-Fi Fantasy, Cyber-Punk, Steam-Punk, Cyber-Noir, Swords & Sorcery, Dark Fantasy...blah blah blah.
It really all depends on how you want to define your own work. Make it too broad and you might dissapoint people, or you might draw in someone who wasn't expecting to like what you've offered.
Does any of that make sense?
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Mon, October 13, 2003 - 8:56 PMI don't think dragons are necessary, but magic yes. If it's not magic making the fiction fantastical, then it's science. And that we usually term a sci-fi. Sometimes it's a mix of both... but usually one or the other.
Of course there are exceptions, but this is such an easy rule of thumb, and it's almost always true, at least in my opinion. :)
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Thu, October 23, 2003 - 7:04 PMEllen Kushner's _Swordpoint_ is "fantasy" in the sense that it's pure world-creating, but has no dragons, or even magic. It's one of those books that stretch and do nice things for the genre, though.
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Sun, March 14, 2004 - 7:52 PMI read in a Realms of Fantasy that by a strict definition SF was supposed to be an actual prediction or explication of a possible future. Anything else would then be fantasy. It was interesting, if cumbersome. I’ll see if I can find the article… -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Mon, August 23, 2004 - 1:03 AMThat's true - I remember reading in a forward chapter in one of the Mission Earth series that for a story to be sci-fi, it has to be about a technology or scientific future that could "reasonably" happen based on our (rapidly expanding) scientific knowledge. Although given recent forays into quantum physics and string theory, the line between sci-fi and fantasy is almost beginning to blur a bit... ;)
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Mon, March 15, 2004 - 6:16 PMWizards and Dragons are only two possible ingredients of a fantasy, and generally speaking I won't read one that features those things prominently. Reason? Most of them have nothing new to say. Yet another whopping adventure in a magical world is not enough to interest me after years of reading fantasy and science fiction.
Looking for something a bit different? Try American Gods by Neil Gaiman, Walter Jon Williams' Metropolitan and City on Fire, Last Call by Tim Powers (or nearly any other Powers title). It could be argued that there are wizards of a sort operating in these books, but not a scaly mythical beast in sight.
A good new fantasy where magic is more prominent/traditional: Tad Williams' War of the Flowers.
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Mon, March 15, 2004 - 8:16 PMI think Charles de Lint writes stuff that's fantasy without having the wizards and dragons thang. More of a sense of magic without actual incantations. -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Mon, March 15, 2004 - 9:23 PMYeah, Charles de Lint is great. So is Robert Holdstock. If you like funny, try the Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde. If you like romance, try Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey. Anything by Guy Gavriel Kay. Gregory Maguire writes a fun twist to traditional fairy tales (Mirror Mirror and Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister). In fact, I don't think I've read a Wizards/Dragon fantasy since my fling with all the Dragonriders of Pern. If you go to Amazon, under Fantasy there is a section just for Magic and Wizards, but then there is General, Alternate History, Arthurian, Contemprary, Epic, and Historical. -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Sat, April 10, 2004 - 4:28 PMYou're right....I've got to finish 2/3 of Jasper Fforde's Jurisfiction series and gotta agree that it is one of the most innovative books ever written, genres be damned...it's a really postmodern take on the entire experience of appreciating literature.
I tend to be more partial to wizards than dragons (at least wizards don't take too much mew space and don't crap man-sized turds hehehe)... right now I'm into the classics.
The Once and Future King, Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar series....
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Sun, April 25, 2004 - 1:10 AMThank you for reminding me that I need to re-read the Mythago Wood books.
Kushiel's Dart = tasty literature -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Thu, July 8, 2004 - 2:50 PMKushiel's Dart was sooo fucking good. I recommend to anyone with a strong pain tolerance. ;)
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Thu, March 18, 2004 - 10:51 AMi love charles delint. fantasy for me can be anything that has a hint of fnatasia to sword and magic tomes. How do you feel about alternate time-line stories-fantasy or sci-fi or neither? -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Thu, March 18, 2004 - 3:11 PM**Disclaimer** My office is being painted right now, so if I type anything that doesn't make sense, I blame the fumes. Whee!
Anyway, I love alternate reality stories. There's a YA series out by Philip Pullman (His Dark Materials) that's just great. -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Tue, April 20, 2004 - 8:42 AMI was in England for their national science fiction convention, which was held this year in Blackpool. Can't recommend Blackpool as a holiday destination, but the convention was a lot of fun. Their special Guest of Honor was Philip Pullman, so I spent a lot of time listening to him talk on panels, be interviewed, and like that. A charming and intelligent gentleman. Apparently the film rights have been purchased to produce the series as three films.
No-one disputes Mr Pullman's ability to either write prose or tell a whopping good story, but I have issues with the way he ended His Dark Materials (no spoilers from me). To my mind he violated my idea of story ethics in order to produce the ending he wanted, using rules he'd invented that had no other purpose than to bring this ending about. With that exception I think these novels are some of the most brilliant stuff I've ever read, though I recommend them with that caveat.
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Sun, March 21, 2004 - 1:00 AMWizards and dragon are fantasy, yes, but they are not all fantasy IS. Its one of those "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares" type gigs, I think... -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 10:30 PMThe works of Jonathon Carroll come to mind here. Land of Laughs and Outside the Dog Museum have surrealistic events which I consider fantasy. Also there have been works that deal with time travel taking it out of the science fiction realm and planting it in the realm of fantasy. Lisa Goldman wrote one of these although the name escapes me. -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Tue, April 20, 2004 - 8:45 AMI think the book you're talking about must be The Red Magician, by Lisa Goldstein. And yeah, Jonathan Carroll is fantasy to me. He has a wider readership, but The Land of Laughs was originally marketed as fantasy. -
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Tue, April 20, 2004 - 7:04 PMYou know I was thinking of the book that was released right after the Red Magician. Only I couldn't think of title of the Red Magician. I loved it so bought this other book which my vague recollection says it dealt with Paris in the 1920s as well as modern times. Mind you it has been a few years and I could easily have confused it with some other work.
Rethinking my Carroll readings, I have to put Outside the Dog Museum up there with Land of Laughs.
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Re: Wizards + Dragons = Fantasy?
Sun, August 22, 2004 - 11:33 PMThe Tornor Keep (Watchtower, Dancers of Arun, and Northern Girl?) by Elizabeth Lynn.